Is the New Apostolic Reformation a myth or a movement? This was the overarching topic during a previously filmed roundtable released as part of the upcoming docuseries, American Gospel: Spirit and Fire. Doug Geivett and Holly Pivec, who have written several books surrounding the topic of NAR, had an extended discussion with Michael Brown, an opponent to the existence of this movement and a friend and colleague to many who are labeled as practitioners in this movement. There were numerous related topics covered in their three-plus hours long dialogue, including questions from Michael Brown regarding specific individuals said to be affiliated with the New Apostolic Reformation and topics, such as The Passion Translation and the seven-mountain mandate.

I will be candid in saying that when this was released, I had mixed feelings about it. I was thankful to see it available to the public, and I also battled frustration throughout the duration of the discussion. My phone screen received a good talking to when it came to this roundtable discussion. It is difficult to hear a prominent and respected leader in the Charismatic movement say that what has been portrayed in Doug and Holly’s books does not exist when you have personally sat with a leader who believed himself to be an Apostle with governing authority and who had given you a letter with stipulations to be reinstated under his apostolic umbrella of authority after being reprimanded for dishonor and rebellion. It is difficult to hear someone deny the reality of this movement when hearing from many others with similarly eerie stories and experienced realms of spiritual abuse.

One of the main arguments held by Brown was that no one he knew who was said to be associated with the movement knew what the NAR was, and none of them lived out what Doug and Holly had written in their books to identify this movement. When evidence was presented to Brown from books written by such people, there seemed to be an appeal to personal relationship and knowing what was meant in their language over what was explicitly taught in their books and on their platforms. In fact, Brown used the language of being an insider and knowing what is meant by these leaders in their writing while telling Doug and Holly that as outsiders, they are painting with a broad brush. However, when Brown was later pressed on his response in previously being called an apostle by Che Ahn, a protege of C. Peter Wagner and proponent of the NAR, he stated that if people wanted to know what he believed, they could read his (Browns’s) books. This seemed to refute his prior argument to Doug and Holly in utilizing the books and materials of leaders embracing the belief of modern apostles and prophets with governing authority.

As the discussion began, I noticed that there was a subtle suggestion to nuance the language used by Doug and Holly. As it progressed, Brown wanted them to change the language and to consider dropping NAR from their vocabulary when discussing abuses and aberrant doctrines raising concerns. When Brown questioned specific recognized leaders that he knew prior to the roundtable, their responses were nuanced in language, which seemed to set the tone for pressing Doug and Holly to make “simple terminological adjustments.” This is a simple observation, but it is important to remember that those who speak out concerning this movement did not create the language or the doctrines. There is simply an appeal and reference to the teachings of C. Peter Wagner and others who have embraced these teachings and practices and who have promulgated them in their public ministry and in their books. These things hide in plain sight, and many people have been subjected to these doctrines for years without realizing.

There is much that could be said about this roundtable, and I appreciate that this conversation took place, though it was frustrating to watch. There were several instances where things were denied, giving the appearance of gaslighting on the matter at hand, which is unhelpful and unfruitful. I respect that all three individuals sat down to have this discussion. At the same time, Dr. Brown did not provide refutable evidence to slay the “myth of NAR”, as one of his colleagues requested prior to the roundtable because much of his rebuttal came from an appeal in personal relationship and his own formulated questions to those that he knows. He also stated that what is known as the NAR emerged from Doug and Holly’s writings, but their writing actually exposed the NAR for what it was and what it continues to be in spite of the softening of language and the change in terminology while still maintaining the original function of modern apostles and prophets with governing authority.

There is a denial that this movement exists by those such as Brown and even a categorization of it being a “boogeyman” according to what has been addressed. He seems to have created two NAR’s: one that Peter Wagner coined and one that is likened to a conspiracy theory. The question remains: what happened to the NAR coined by Wagner? Did it die with him, or is it still prevalent? I believe that it is still prevalent.

There is a distancing from Peter Wagner taking place in quietly scrubbing websites of his obvious influence and professed axioms defining the New Apostolic Reformation. Some are renaming books once bearing the very words of this movement. However, there are numerous books published bearing his name in forewords and in the body of works written. One of Wagner’s books was republished by Destiny Image in 2022, and this book talks about dominion and explicitly discusses the New Apostolic Reformation and apostles existing today similar to Peter, Paul, and John. There is homage given to this very term and this movement both in word and deed. Apostolic centers are said to take the place of denominations by those who hold to the belief of modern apostles and prophets with governing authority in the church, and there are well-known ministers who teach that restored “present truths” must be embraced in order to be part of the coming move of God in the earth; one present truth is the restoration of apostles back to the church, and these apostles govern and have extraordinary authority, including judgment recorded in the book of Acts (Ananias, Sapphira, Elymas, etc.)

It is my humble opinion that this discussion is a heads up that the language is changing, and this is why we need to have proper Biblical discernment and to be in solid Bible teaching churches that uphold the Word of God and the gospel of Jesus Christ. We can consider this a gift in being made aware of language changing, which means that we need to be ever diligent in knowing truth from error. I am thankful to individuals such as Doug Geivett, Holly Pivec, and others who have sounded the alarm on this movement for years, and I pray that more people exit this movement by the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ.

Listen to this three-part podcast series reviewing the American Gospel NAR Roundtable: Myth or Movement? Part 1: American Gospel NAR Roundtable – The Lovesick Scribe Podcast – Apple Podcasts Part 2: American Gospel NAR Roundtable – The Lovesick Scribe Podcast – Apple Podcasts Part 3: American Gospel Roundtable Dee – The Lovesick Scribe Podcast – Apple Podcasts